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UbersaurusRex
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Why is BV so bad?
A simple comparsion
Arcas 2-2681
Dire Wolf A-2689
Now both of these mechs a ok(though I think the Dire Wolf A is a beautiful book mech) The extra 35 tons of armor and guns should at least count for
more than a paltry 8 BV
Why is BV so unbalanced?
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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RickSteele
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It's not unbalanced, theoretically it is just the opposite.
The Arcas-2 is 5/8/5, the Daishi is 3/5/0. Being faster and having jump capability tends to increase BV.
The Daishi A has lots of stuff that can explode (Gauss, 2 tons of SRM ammo, 3 tons  of AMS ammo), which tends to degrade BV. The Arcas-2 has none of that.
BV is by no means a perfect system, but I feel it works pretty well.
Rick Steele
Catalyst Demo Team - Milwaukee, WI
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UbersaurusRex
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Ok on an infinite empty field the Arcas 2 can find the 3 hex sweet spot and stay in it forever. But since I have yet to play on one of those the
speed is not that big a boost. The JJ on the Arcas 2 will give him an additional +1 to hit him but it will increase his to hit numbers by more than
it is worth since with 3/4 pilots with the Dire Wolf running and the Arcas jumping to stay 20 hexes away the Dire Wolf will shoot 3 large pulses at
10's while the ERPPC's stab back at amazing 12's. The Dire Wolf will then average more damage in the longrun and the extra armor on
the Dire Wolf will win out. Alternatively the Dire Wolf could find a spot where the Arcas 2 must get within 20 hexes of the Dire Wolf to have shots
thereby nullifying any speed advantage the Arcas might possess. And your point about the exploding Dire Wolf has a little truth but the only thing
that will explode is the Gauss since the Dire Wolf will get rid of his AMS ammo on the first round as well as 1 ton of his Streak ammo. Basically
your points are totally invalid and I question why you even bothered to post a reply. That Dire Wolf will chew up an Arcas 2 with out even breathing
hard.
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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Mikeym_us
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but will a Daishi last long in a fight with a Longbow and a Archer
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UbersaurusRex
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Yet another flaw in BV. In a game of equal BV an IS player will be able to modify his mechs to the point if ridicilousnesss by bringing better pilots
(i.e. the Awesome 9Q) take a look at this mech and give it a 1/2 pilot then find an equivalent Clan mech you would play against it.
Also which 2 mechs were you talking(there are alot of them).
But judging by the general abilites of these mechs the LRM's just wont compete with 3 Large Pulse Lasers and a Gauss Rifle
Another point is that while you might find several instances of fair match-up's they should all be fair match-up's regardless of faction or
weight. Otherwise a system of balance would be useless, much as BV is.
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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FireFox
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| Quote: | Originally posted by UbersaurusRex
But since I have yet to play on one of those the speed is not that big a boost. The JJ on the Arcas 2 will give him an additional +1 to hit him but
it will increase his to hit numbers by more than it is worth since with 3/4 pilots with the Dire Wolf running and the Arcas jumping to stay 20 hexes
away the Dire Wolf will shoot 3 large pulses at 10's while the ERPPC's stab back at amazing 12's. The Dire Wolf will then average more
damage in the longrun and the extra armor on the Dire Wolf will win out. Alternatively the Dire Wolf could find a spot where the Arcas 2 must get
within 20 hexes of the Dire Wolf to have shots thereby nullifying any speed advantage the Arcas might possess. And your point about the exploding
Dire Wolf has a little truth but the only thing that will explode is the Gauss since the Dire Wolf will get rid of his AMS ammo on the first round as
well as 1 ton of his Streak ammo. Basically your points are totally invalid and I question why you even bothered to post a reply. That Dire Wolf
will chew up an Arcas 2 with out even breathing hard. |
how does the Dire Wolf get rid of his Ammo? dump it out the back? that is not really in character.
other perks of JJs: the Dire Wolf moves/ fires first and the Arcus jumps to break LOS (up and over two wood hexes) then when DW is sitting there the
Arcus can jump back and do its thing. also the jumping is cumulative, eg if the DW runs it will move max 5 hexes (most likely 3) and means the Acrus
in at +4, the DW will be shooting back on +5, reducing the bonus for LPL to -1
ecah weapon is only as good as the person using it: I have taken out assualt Clan mechs using 3025 Archers and Lvl 2 ammo (thunder aug) in an equal BV
fight. then again I have had appalling luck and had my MAD CAT 2 have its head caved in in the first turn from MLs.
so BV is not perfect but it is beter than what went before (CV, CBill, Weight), but show me a Wargame list were there is not someone who will exploit
the flaws?
S
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mdauben
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by UbersaurusRexBasically your points are totally invalid and I question why you even bothered to post a reply. That Dire
Wolf will chew up an Arcas 2 with out even breathing hard. |
Well, lets be rude to someone who was trying to answer a question that you asked. If you are just going to dis people's relplies, I question why
you even bothered to post. 
I routienly trash heavier, slower 'mechs with faster, more lighly armed jump mechs. It has nothing to do with finding a "sweet spot"
but with outmanuvering him, denying him shots and attacking his weaker rear armor. So it seems to me that his explination is right on (aside from
the fact that this agrees with the published BV points)
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UbersaurusRex
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since the 3 laqrge pulse lasers mounted on the dire wolfs arm can cover his back arc and these are the weapons that you want to shoot at a fast mech
that is jumping around you cant "deny shots " from the Dire Wolf at the Arcas
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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Mikeym_us
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| Quote: | Originally posted by UbersaurusRex
Also which 2 mechs were you talking(there are alot of them).
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the 2 mechs i mentioned were the Archer and the Longbow the Longbow is the mech with the round missile pods for arms.
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Mr.Humble
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How about this?
Play the game for the fun of it...not the math....
pretty fun that way 
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UbersaurusRex
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Well since there happens to be more than one varient of the Archer and Longbow mechs your information doesn't help me at all.
Also for a game to be fun the sides need to be evenly balanced to give the players at least a decent chance of winning, and when my friends and I
can't agree that the sides are balanced then we could check the BV to see if the sides were even if BV was a good system for balancing forces.
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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KaiserPanda
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...
I don't think I have ever seen a single fight fought on an open area with no terrain features...
You are failing to realise that BV isn't based entirely on offensive and defensive capabilities. It also takes into account things like
manuverability.
If you take an Arcas in to a stand-up fight against a Dire Wolf, you are using it wrong. Not every 'mech is a stand-up slugger.
Use its jumping and the terrain to your advantage, and you can snipe that Dire Wolf in to scrap.
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UbersaurusRex
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This is true, the best way to use the Arcas againts a Dire Wolf is to snipe, but the Dire Wolf player should have enpigh terrain to hide behind that
the Arcas wont be able to get very good shots if he even has any. The large pulses just give the Dire Wolf the ability to strike back very hard
against the Arcas
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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Chem
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I'm with you Mr Humble, It is after all, just a game.
...But the accountants of the world need a place to spar, so just sit back and have a laugh I say!
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MvrkMechJock
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Munchkins... Can't live with 'em, can't ban 'em from the local gaming store.
BV seems just fine to me. Esp after a time way back in teh way back when my 200 tons of IS beauties went toe to toe with 200 tons of Clan meanies and
not one of them left the field alive. Sorry, I'll take BV. At least my boys have a shot.
It's in how you use the tools, not the measure of what a tool can do.
If brute force doesn\'t solve your problem...
...you\'re probably not using enough
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mdauben
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| Quote: | Originally posted by UbersaurusRex
since the 3 laqrge pulse lasers mounted on the dire wolfs arm can cover his back arc and these are the weapons that you want to shoot at a fast mech
that is jumping around you cant "deny shots " from the Dire Wolf at the Arcas |
While the arm mounted LPLs can fire to the rear, it still does not have a 360 degree arc so there are still areas you can be where it cannot fire.
Plus if you twist so that you can fire the pulse lasers to the rear, you cannot fire the other weapons into that arc, so you are denying the Dire Wolf
shots at you. Plus, you can manipulate the to hit modifiers for both of you to make sure you have a better shot than the Dire Wolf.
I don't deny that the Dire Wolf is a tough customer, but the Arcas is not as totally outclassed as you seem to think.
Of course if you refuse to belive the game designers and (as far as I can tell) everyone else who has responded to this question that's your
right.
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Bergermeister
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Between torso twisting and flipping arms, the tripple large pulse can fire 360 degrees. The main problem with the Arcas when compared to the Dire Wolf
is not only its guns, but its armor. Keep in mind that the Arcas's main guns are in the arms. Three shots from a large pulse will cut it cleanly
off. While it will take four shots (or three with a lucky crit check) to do the same with the PPCs against the Dire Wolf. If the Arcas loses an arm,
it loses 25% of its fire power, while the Dire wolf still has some firepower with only one of its arms and streak 6s. Keep also in mind that the Dire
Wolf adds those streaks (when and if it closes range) and stays cold. The Arcas CAN add its medium pulse lasers but goes a little hot.
As far as manueverabilty is concerned, the Arcas owns the field hands down. Being faster and having jumps jets is useful, but is only good if it can
position itself after the Dire Wolf. If the Arcas loses initiative, then he has to make a judgement call that might make or break the game. Still, as
long as the Arcas has shots, the Direwolf can shoot right back (providing there isnt an amazing peice of cover, or is 21 to 23 hexes away) more often
then not with better numbers.
Back to the question at hand....
Is BattleValue bad? Yes and no.
Yes there are still problems with BV. Adjustable pilots are kind of a screw for the Clans if they are facing an equal IS force. There is the
occasional over rated mech (Arcas 2, Turkina A, Super Nova, etc...) but it does make a good guide line to follow. Players should use common sense when
making equal forces in a scenario.
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Corbeaubm
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Something else to note is that not all scenarios are stand-up fights. I'd rather have the Arcas then the Dire Wolf if I'm on a strike
mission; the Dire Wolf is going to have to fight though enemies, the Arcas at least has a chance to evade and bypass them.
This gets even more pronounced in bad terrain (heavy woods, swamp) where the Arcas will very quickly outpace the Dire Wolf because of its jumpjets.
Corbeau
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Marius
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I'd like to take this moment to agree with most of the responses to the original question thus far.
You're absolutely right Uber, BV is a horrible system, except for all of the others (my apologies to Winston Churchill on that one!). BV is a
good system if you understand how it works. It's meant to allow for a relatively fair fight, assuming that you use the strengths of your unit
properly.
You are absolutely correct that in a numbers game, on a mythical flat field with no terrain, with both warriors running right at one another like a
couple of modern day WWI soldiers running into the machine guns, that the Daishi would win the game. But it's asinine to expect that to be the
case. What you need to realize is that the BV calculations for each unit are based upon their relative strengths.
The Daishi gets it BV from its big guns, heavy armor, and numerous heat sinks, which makes it suited to stand and fire. On the other hand, the
Arcas' BV comes primarily from its weapons, heat sinks, and most importantly, speed and jump jets. It's designed to be more maneuverable,
and use that maneuverability to its advantage.
Those three LPL's you're so concerned about can be nasty, but they can't cover the entire rear arc. Jump that Arcas into the left rear
of the Daishi, and he can flip the Gauss Rifle or swing it around, but those pesky lower arm actuators prevent him from doing the same with the
LPL's in the right arm.
As for the cover argument, the Arcas is maneuverable enough to deny the Daishi cover much of the time, or grab more cover for itself. Say for example
that the Daishi positions itself behind a level one hill. The Arcas can easily (assuming there's one available on the map) jump to a higher
elevation, thereby negating the partial cover of the Daishi. Or, he can play tag in the woods all day, or move into a convenient building for cover,
whereas the Daishi might find it difficult to do the same.
In the hands of a capable player, the Arcas should be a challenging fight for the Daishi every time. If the Arcas player has the "bigger is
better" mentality, and plays his mech accordingly, he's going to get stomped every time. However, if he's smart enough to play to his
strengths, he'll stand a good chance of winning out.
A good example of this actually occurred in a recent game. One player had a Stone Rhino (2626 pts) against a Vapor Eagle (Goshawk 2243pts). The
Goshawk kept jumping around, using cover to his advantage, pressing his advantage when he won initiative, and fading back when he lost. He eventually
ended up jumping in and gutting the Stone Rhino, even though he surrendered 400 BV and was 1/2 the weight of the Stone Rhino.
BV is fair if you know how to get the best use out of your units; if you don't, then you'll think it's not.
Marius
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UbersaurusRex
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just so you are aware on a mythical flat field the Arcas-2 can out range the dire wolf and stay at 23 hexes where the dire wolf cant hit it. 
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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Cache
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... until it gets forced into a corner or the edge of a map.
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UbersaurusRex
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the reason the field is mythical is because it is infinite and has no edge or corners.
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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Marius
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In that case, you should have qualified it by saying "in a perfect world", or rather than arguing against, the Arcas, you should've
been ranting about how the Daishi sucked because it'd never be able to range in on the Arcas. You have to deal with real (game) world
situations, and in the case, properly played, mechs of equal BV, in the long run, should on average split their wins/losses.
Marius
Those who fail to learn their history are doomed to repeat it during their senior year.
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MvrkMechJock
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BV is a good 'real world' indicator. It cannot account for luck nore can it discount the variables of terrain and other mitigating factors
of battle.
If you're going to play on the unlimited, terrainless field, why don't you go back to the 'options' screen of your video game and
toggle 'heat tracking' and 'ammo explosions' to off while you're at it and toggle 'umlimited ammo' to on...
9 times out of 10 I'll take speed over armor. Armor keeps you alive WHEN you get hit. Speed keeps you alive by not GETTING hit. But w/ equal BV,
sooner or later the fast guy gets hit/pinned or the armored guys gets whittled down.
Sheesh, I've never seen it get this uppity about BV before...
If brute force doesn\'t solve your problem...
...you\'re probably not using enough
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UbersaurusRex
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its very true that how you play the game depends alot on what kind of mechs you pick and it is possible for a fast mech to beat a slow one, but
making a post where you state that you have beaten slower mechs doesnt really change the argument because for all I know the people you playing
against are just happen to be bad at the game or you choose not to describe the other games where they pounded your fast mechs into the ground. I
really am trying to find a way for the Arcas-2 to win 50% of the games and I feel that it just is not going to happen. If someone could write out a
set of logical moves and to-hit numbers that would result in a dead Dire Wolf about 50% of the time then I will agree that BV is balanced, if not then
I shall maintain my position that the LPL will let the Dire Wolf win.
Also if the Arcas-2 is just so much stronger than a Dire Wolf that it's so easy to win if you just use your speed well then thats not much of a
balanced game now is it?
Your job is not to die for your country, but to get the other poor slob to die for his.
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